Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Forum to discuss CQB entry tactics / room clearing, with other registered users.

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jimothy_183
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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by jimothy_183 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:28 am

Going furthur lets look at a quote from the second post in this thread.
Jack wrote: Most Teams don't understand tactics but rather spend all of their time learning and employing what I call Prefabricated-tacticsTM.
Here are some examples of military doctrine that don't really allow for much flexibility or adaptation. Perfect examples of prefab tactics that's basically CQB for dummies.

Battledrill 6 FM 7-8

Page 11 Battledrill 5
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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by tacticalguy » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:36 am

Jack is 100% correct. No emphasis on the "why", at all.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by Ryan » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:40 am

Why emphasis on the why? You don't want thinking soldiers do you?! They take up time, try implement changes, we wouldn't have that!
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by tacticalguy » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:46 am

Your sarcasm is duly noted and appreciated. 8) I wasn't trained that way, though. Yes, I started out in the non-fluid/rigid category but, that was a comprehension issue on my part. I hit all of the "marks" as I was expected to do so, no one questioned my competence. As I said, after a couple of years, I began my mental progression. My unit highly prized innovative, out of the box thinking. My impression is that I was on the correct learning curve.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by jimothy_183 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:10 am

jimothy_183 wrote: You see the problem with TTPs like stacking is really just the surface of the problem. The real problem is really at the fundamental level because if there was no problem at the fundamental level all these problems at the surface level would disappear. Yes you are right about dogma and everyone just passing down what was taught to them just because it was taught to them without ever questioning the effectiveness of their teachings. But that problem came about from the bureaucratic mindset of "mass producing" soldiers to save time and money, quantity over quality. Those last 3 words are the exact opposite of the mindset of SF/SOF schools.
Just found this vid that I thought was very relevant to this quote.

semper acer , semper velox , semper trux , semper promptus

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by tacticalguy » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:28 pm

Good video, Jimothy! Question and verify.
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by jimothy_183 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:23 pm

Gabe Suarez wrote: In The Land Of The Blind, The One Eyed Man Is King - Or You Don’t Know What You Don’t Know

...

A third phenomenon affecting the training world comes from the term – L.C.D. That refers to “Lowest Common Denominator”. The LCD is a term thrown around in police training, and in some military circles when large numbers of recruits must be qualified and brought up to a minimum performance standard. There will be some recruits that shine in that environment, but most will not. The Drill Instructor is then faced with either teaching those that shine and flunking the rest, incurring the ire of his commander, or teaching to the minimum standard, checking off the boxes, and moving on to the next class. Which option do you think the career-seeker, or position protecting instructor will choose?

And so what happens is either a gradual diluting of training material to meet the low capabilities of the LCD, a very distant relationship to the chaos of fighting, or a very unrealistic method of training that is only applicable in very one-sided confrontations.

...
Source
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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by Ryan » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:12 am

But the standard's purpose is what? Not to get killed or just simply to work as a team or in a traditional manner?
What kind of standard is it? It makes you wonder...
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by tacticalguy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:44 am

See? That's the question that is really, really hard to answer. From my standpoint, I want the entire team trained to the fluid standard before they ever go into the field because that offers the highest survival rate of not just the officers/soldiers involved but, also the people that they may be rescuing/saving/arresting. The people that argue against that idea have to be able to show "quantifiable" progress to their constituents, the people that vote them into office. As an instructor, I can measure progress in the people and teams that I mentor. As a politician? "Well, this guy tells me that the tactical team that we're paying thousands of dollars a month to train is coming along but, just isn't there, yet." Yeah, that's going to go over well...
If you have `cleared' all the rooms and met no resistance, you and your entry team have probably kicked in the door of the wrong house.
(Murphy's Cop Laws)

The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. (Von Clausewitz)

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Ryan
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Re: Non-Rigid vs Rigid system

Post by Ryan » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:13 am

Training-turnover rates are always a huge con in teams that cost a lot of money to create, justify and maintain. I was also thinking along the argument of mission vs individual. You train individuals to do missions, then complete them successfully. Although you try to mitigate the risks as much as possible, there is always room for death and injury, but the mission still comes first. The standard is always mission completion. Getting there without loss is up to you more so than the puppet master string-pullers.
CQB-TEAM Education and Motivation.

"Pragmatism over theory."
"Anyone with a weapon is just as deadly as the next person."
"Unopposed CQB is always a success, if you wanted you could moonwalk into the room holding a Pepsi."

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